Curse

Shasgaliel · Jul 30, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Actually those areas have one more thing in common. They are a hot areas. I do not recall any riders in snowy/coldish areas. They are in the desert, jungle or barren Ascalon. We do not see any riders in pre but maybe because pre is too small.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 31, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I wouldn't say hot, Jungles and Forests are humid, not hot. I would say Ascalon in post would be the same. Which may mean they prefer the more humid climates.

As for the pre-comment, as said in the OP, Erudine implies that the Riders have not been studied, while we know things like Skales, Elementals, and other various things we see in pre-searing has been studied. So there are three possibilities I see:

The Riders are new to the area. This does not mean they came after pre-searing, just that they have not been in the area as long as the other things we see in pre-searing.
Due to their hostility, they couldn't be studied well.
There was never any interest in studying them.

I am inclined to go with option 1.

Also, an additional reason as to why the Riders may be attracted to the Tarnished Coast:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapk

These plants you've discovered have interesting occiduary metamorphic intrusionary properties. Oh, you humans don't understand anything, do you? Just return with 5 Sentient Vines and you'll be paid! You comprehend that, don't you?

Apparently the plants have occiduary metamorphic intrusionary properties. (No, I don't get the crazy asura's words).

draxynnic · Jul 31, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

There is one: Naturally (or created to be) aggressive. Similar to how animals get aggressive when they eat, Riders may be the same. Since we only go near them in areas where there is magical concentration, they may believe we're trying to steal their food (if they are unintelligent, then they very well may be prone to think this) and would act in defense to those around them, for the simple hope of keeping their own food.

Or they may instinctively assume anything that approaches is a predator and seek to defend themselves against what they perceive as an attack. If they evolved their behaviour in the Desert... well, there don't seem to be many big herbivores there (possibly the Sand Drakes or Minotaurs, but possibly not), so it's probably a good assumption for a Rider that anything they're not used to is a predator. Come to think on it, the thaumivorous Riders may well be in the ecological niche of a herbivore in the desert...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Probably where there's a large excess of magic. And we're not calling them smarter, it just appears to be a natural feature that is only expressed in the right environments. Kind of like you're not going to find a dog with thick fur in a desert, and dog with thin fur in a tundra.

An alternative explanation could, for instance, be that the ones that moved out were the weaker specimens at the time - having been forced out by the stronger Riders as the food supply dwindled and the population exceeded the limits of the food supply. This would explain why Riders found in the Ascalon and the Maguuma are weaker specimens than the half-starved examples in the Desert (those in Ascalon may well have been the last wave to be forced out, which were lucky to find the residue from the Searing before they starved). Those in the Tarnished Coast and the Ring of Fire would be those that hit the Rider jackpot by finding a region with particularly strong magical energy allowing them to grow to full size.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 31, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Or they may instinctively assume anything that approaches is a predator and seek to defend themselves against what they perceive as an attack. If they evolved their behaviour in the Desert... well, there don't seem to be many big herbivores there (possibly the Sand Drakes or Minotaurs, but possibly not), so it's probably a good assumption for a Rider that anything they're not used to is a predator. Come to think on it, the thaumivorous Riders may well be in the ecological niche of a herbivore in the desert...

A note: Skales and Hydras are just about the most common race to see around a Rider. In the Fissure of Woe, you see both. In the Crystal Desert, you see Hydras. In the Maguuma you see Skales. Not sure if the Riders in the Ring of Fire Islands are near Hydras (I think a couple). Those in the Tarnished Coast are not around any other race, and those in Ascalon are either near Elementals or Charr (though not very close to the Charr).

Elementals can be explained through the Riders viewing them as a food source (since magic animates them), though the Skales and Hydras, how would that be explained? Especially if "they may instinctively assume anything that approaches is a predator and seek to defend themselves against what they perceive as an attack" is correct. I would say they have learned to live with them (most logical to be the case if they originate from the Fissure of Woe - as that is the most obvious source of this being seen).

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

An alternative explanation could, for instance, be that the ones that moved out were the weaker specimens at the time - having been forced out by the stronger Riders as the food supply dwindled and the population exceeded the limits of the food supply. This would explain why Riders found in the Ascalon and the Maguuma are weaker specimens than the half-starved examples in the Desert (those in Ascalon may well have been the last wave to be forced out, which were lucky to find the residue from the Searing before they starved). Those in the Tarnished Coast and the Ring of Fire would be those that hit the Rider jackpot by finding a region with particularly strong magical energy allowing them to grow to full size.

Only issue with this is that the Maguuma is also a magical hotspot due to the Bloodstone and the enchanted waters.

Personally, I am unsure if we can really take Normal mode levels into account for lore. Obviously there is a game mechanic about it - higher levels in later areas of the game. However, with HM, the levels are about the same (and allied NPCs aren't as wtfweak making our characters, and henchmen even, look like gods). Meh, I just don't like taking into account levels; if we do, I'd prefer to look at HM levels, not NM levels.

Gmr Leon · Jul 31, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Those in the Tarnished Coast are not around any other race, and those in Ascalon are either near Elementals or Charr (though not very close to the Charr).

Actually, they're near Krait, Oakhearts, and Fanged Ayahuasca, across the entire Tarnished Coast.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 31, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Those on the bridge aren't near anything (one can argue skelk, but not that close), I can see the argument for Krait, but I don't recall them intersecting agro bubbles. Oakhearts and Fanged Ayahuasca can go in the same category as Elementals with this as well, the Asura claim they have some unusual property - which is probably a complicated way of saying that they are enchanted by magic to move about.

draxynnic · Aug 01, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

A note: Skales and Hydras are just about the most common race to see around a Rider. In the Fissure of Woe, you see both. In the Crystal Desert, you see Hydras. In the Maguuma you see Skales. Not sure if the Riders in the Ring of Fire Islands are near Hydras (I think a couple). Those in the Tarnished Coast are not around any other race, and those in Ascalon are either near Elementals or Charr (though not very close to the Charr).

Well, the ones in the Fissure of Woe are members of the Most Valued Profession rather than the Mesmers they are elsewhere. This may mean that they've developed a symbiotic relationship, as I hypothesised earlier in the thread.

Riders and Mahgo Hydras cohabit a few areas of Perdition Rock, but it is worth noticing that they're the same variety of hydra in each location, so it could mean that they are the same species and still recognise Riders as being useful to have around rather than food.

In the Maguuma, I'm not sure how much the Skales and Riders do coexist. Maybe in Mamnoon Lagoon. It's possible, however, that there's still some evolutionary connection with the FoW skale and riders that allow them to coexist peacefully.

Regarding Elementals... I'd probably just consider them to be in similar areas due to the same cause (elementals appear in highly magical areas, riders are attracted to them), and if they coexist peacefully it may be because the riders recognise them as being nonorganic and therefor unlikely to be carnivorous.

Of course, the final explanation could simply be that they assume anything unfamiliar is a potential predator. If something has been around for a few days without crossing the aggro bubble, the Riders might decide they aren't a threat and hold back from attacking when the bubble is crossed and, eventually, learn to tolerate that creature type. For an adventurer that blunders straight into the Rider's personal space, though...

Hyper Cutter · Aug 01, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

It's also worth noting that the Riders in the Ring of Fire mission will attack Mursaat...

What I do wonder is why there are no Riders around the Bloodstone in Bloodstone Caves.

draxynnic · Aug 01, 2009, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Maybe they just haven't got there yet... or maybe they can't. Although that does raise questions as to what their migratory pattern may have been...

Gmr Leon · Aug 01, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Consider that, there is the possibility that Bloodstone is the Bloodstone of Aggression. While the creatures we see inside don't fight each other, they are inclined to attack; it may be that if the Riders went there they would have absorbed the magic and forgot their initial reasons for going there, the magic, and just became mindless aggressive creatures like the others, or, perhaps, the creatures inside attack any and all intruding creatures, not just players. And aside from that...There is a sealed door in the way.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 01, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And aside from that...There is a sealed door in the way.

There is a hole in the ceiling above the bloodstone.

Those doors never made sense to me, if there is a hole just above the bloodstone, what is the point of the door when someone can toss down a rope and climb down? >_>

Gmr Leon · Aug 01, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

(There isn't a z-axis, that's why they don't!)

Sorry, it was begging to be said. That aside, let's just consider the facts before us. You have two entrances to a rare and powerful object, one is just a short stroll away from camp, the other is somewhere in the foothills of the Shiverpeak Mountains, possibly miles away. Not to mention, you don't know exactly where it is, you just know that it is there, and if you could find it, well, wouldn't that just be spectacular, you'd have a quick route to it. However, what if the terrain isn't suitable for a camp to be set up on? That's unfortunate, but hey, you came all this way, there's bound to be a spot somewhere..Which leads to more looking around, expending more energy, making you wonder, was it all really worth it?

Of course, one could argue that fighting the monsters would probably expend just as much, if not more, energy, than searching for the quicker route. However, there's always a slight chance of monster encounters along the way as they try to get to the other entrance, so..Either way you put it, it's going to take quite a bit of effort. And even when you get there, you'd have to have a supply route set up, which is just one more energy-expending nuisance.

Really, if I had to choose, I'd probably stick with the closer route, and possibly at some point help keep a few monsters at bay as an Asura sets up a gate taking you to the Bloodstone chamber, and then just be happy with that convenience.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Another consideration is that we don't know of any Riders in the Shiverpeaks - it's possible, maybe even likely, that they simply can't stand the cold and that the Shiverpeaks present an impassible barrier. If they're migrating from the Crystal Desert, then, it's possible that (apart from the Ascalonian examples, which seem to be a more recent migration) the migratory route worked its away along the Orrian peninsular attracted to the residue of the gods, then crossed the water (riders fly, after all) to the Ring of Fire and the Tarnished Coast, and then spread northwards from there.

The reason they aren't in Sparkfly Swamp could simply be that the Bloodstone is buried deep enough that they couldn't sniff it out (or sense it using whetever means they use). This could be because of where the Bloodstone actually is (deep in the caves) or it could be because their migratory pattern simply didn't bring them that close to the zone.

Alternatively, of course, the Riders that tried to move in may simply have been eaten by the natives.

Gmr Leon · Aug 02, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Another possibility is that the door does more than just keep the caves sealed. It may keep the magic concealed as well.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That aside, let's just consider the facts before us. You have two entrances to a rare and powerful object, one is just a short stroll away from camp, the other is somewhere in the foothills of the Shiverpeak Mountains, possibly miles away. Not to mention, you don't know exactly where it is, you just know that it is there, and if you could find it, well, wouldn't that just be spectacular, you'd have a quick route to it. However, what if the terrain isn't suitable for a camp to be set up on? That's unfortunate, but hey, you came all this way, there's bound to be a spot somewhere..Which leads to more looking around, expending more energy, making you wonder, was it all really worth it?

While I did use "rope" I was meaning for this to be in the use of the Riders, which would more or less glide down. If this theory is correct, then they'd be able to sense the magic, thus more easily find the hole.

But then, as pointed out, the Riders don't seem to enjoy the cold. However, we don't know if the role is in the cold. If you note: You see water drops, not snow flakes.